Sprint Technique Options

[SinfulHedgehog]

Hi folks,

I was out today and think I may have finally worked out how to sprint while out of the saddle, but can't quite be sure. I used to stand there, keeping my hips pretty much horizontal and use my legs and arms to provide the power but today I started to roll my hips from side to side. This meant that I was getting nearly all of my weight over each peddle as I pumped the cranks and yanked on the bars and thus was getting greater acceleration. Furthermore, I wasn't getting so tired either and probably was able to maintain this sprint for about three to four times longer than before. One other thing I noticed, my bike started doing that rocking from left to right that you see the professionals doing when they really put their foot down - I used to think that doing that was inefficient but I'm not quite so sure. It felt a little like I was running, but on the pedals. Does this sound right? If it is, it might just revolutionise parts of my riding.



Max

[Jarl]

Yup, that's how you pedal when you're properly going for it. Ultimate power is achieved when you're pulling the right bar as hard as you can, pushing down the right pedal as hard as you can (this is why wider bars are better for out of saddle sprinting; you can get more leverage) and using all muscles in between to get the pedal down as hard as you can. The bike will naturally tilt, it's called honking IIRC.

[Crank]

I wouldn't pull on the bars too hard, as that just wastes energy. Concentrate on putting your bodyweight over each leg as you push down. The bike will rock naturally as you do this, but the idea is not to move the bike - it is to move your body weight...

[SinfulHedgehog]

Crank: I would have to disagree - more pulling equals more power equals faster acceleration in my opinion.

Is this sprint technique the same as for climbing when out of the saddle?

[Crank]

Crank: I would have to disagree - more pulling equals more power equals faster acceleration in my opinion.

in which case, you are not doing it right. You need to put the power through your legs - not your arms..

[marcliam]

Pulling on the bars in time with your downstoke is what you do to power up slopes. It levers the rear tyre into the ground to increase traction and stop the rear tyre spinning out on you.

[Crank]

Pulling on the bars in time with your downstoke is what you do to power up slopes.

Sorry, that is absolutely wrong. Pulling on the bars will get you nowhere. The technique is all about weight transfer, not bike movement. Inevitably the bike will move under you, but there should be no need to pull it.

All I can honestly suggest is that you try it and report back...

[SinfulHedgehog]

Pulling on the bars in time with your downstoke is what you do to power up slopes. It levers the rear tyre into the ground to increase traction and stop the rear tyre spinning out on you.

I was referring to the rolling of my hips as I turn alternate pedals. But I presume that this must be right, I'll just have to test it to confirm.

Sorry, that is absolutely wrong. Pulling on the bars will get you nowhere. The technique is all about weight transfer, not bike movement. Inevitably the bike will move under you, but there should be no need to pull it.

All I can honestly suggest is that you try it and report back...

To quote Brian Lopes in the Bible (A.K.A. Mastering Mountain Bike Skills, pp. 37):

"Pull it. Counteract your massive power strokes by pulling the bars and rocking your bike from side to side. Women can dramatically improve their power by learning to use their upper bodies this way."

...And discuss.

[marcliam]

Sorry, that is absolutely wrong. Pulling on the bars will get you nowhere. The technique is all about weight transfer, not bike movement. Inevitably the bike will move under you, but there should be no need to pull it.

All I can honestly suggest is that you try it and report back...

Crank I was refering to pulling back on bars being used on steep climbs. Pulling back on the bar levers the rear wheel into the the trail and increases traction, try refering also to Lopes book or Ned Overend who both describe the technique. With regards to sprinting on the flat I would agree that pulling on the bar doesn't get you anywhere other than using up energy.

[Crank]

not much else I can say really. I'm not about to disagree with guys like Ned Overend, but if we are going to get into a 'google war', there are probably as many references to that technique as to the one I am suggesting..

What cannot be argued, however, is that yanking on the bars uses energy. Road riders tend to use bodyweight, not arm strength, to climb out of the saddle. In that sense, conventional wisdom is to allow the bike to move under you while maintaining only a light grip on the bars while your legs do all the work. If anything, there is a tendency to rest your bodyweight on the bars, rather than pull against them.

Like I said, try both ways and make your own minds up. I have...

[SinfulHedgehog]

With regards to sprinting on the flat I would agree that pulling on the bar doesn't get you anywhere other than using up energy.

Again, Lopes would say otherwise. See page 39 IIRC in the section titled 'Sprinting.' And in terms of what I discovered the other day, I'm inclined to agree with him at this stage...

[Crank]

Again, Lopes would say otherwise. See page 39 IIRC in the section titled 'Sprinting.' And in terms of what I discovered the other day, I'm inclined to agree with him at this stage...

so you're agreeing with Lopes, even though you've not tried it yourself..?

this is what I'm trying to help you understand - plenty of examples of it here...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=t2xKBKpmf40

[Jarl]

so you're agreeing with Lopes, even though you've not tried it yourself..?

this is what I'm trying to help you understand - plenty of examples of it here...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=t2xKBKpmf40

I fear we'll have to agree to differ on this one. The technique you describe is useful, and I use it, but I personally find it won't generate the absolute maximum power possible. Going up bathwick hill, it's steepish-flatter-steepish-REALLY steep. In the steepish bits, I use your technique. In the flatter bit, I sit and spin. And in the REALLY steep bit, I mash the pedals and pull the bars with everything I've got. However, I can't keep up this 100% power for long; it's fairly easy to keep up your technique for much longer.

With regards to peak power, I personally find (and also from a theoretical viewpoint) peak power is obtained while pulling on the bar and pushing on the pedals. This isn't the most efficient way by any stretch of the imagination, though. You can also modify this technique slightly and pull the front of the bike up, levering all your weight onto the back tyre, greatly increasing traction for icky surfaces.


And as for road riders, I'm not a roadie, and the one time I tried one it was horrid; I couldn't out-of-saddle sprint it the way you can a mountain bike because I found it too unstable, so there was a cap on the power I could get down, whereas with a MTB the only limiting factor is me.

[marcliam]

Whatever we all might think, there is of course one other very important technique for very steep hills often favoured by myself......................




GETTING OFF AND WALKING

[SinfulHedgehog]

so you're agreeing with Lopes, even though you've not tried it yourself..?

Of course not, I referred to riding on the flat. I know that pulling on the bars as I pedal creates extra power and Lopes happens to share the same view. Though I'm also aware that it becomes tiring after a while. However, I'm no expert and so don't want to say that I'm not open to other suggestions as far as techniques go.

this is what I'm trying to help you understand - plenty of examples of it here...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=t2xKBKpmf40

Yes, I see what you mean. This answers the question I originally set which is whether or not I should be rolling my hips - it felt better, but I wasn't sure. The video would suggest that this is correct.

I wouldn't have asked the question if I wasn't after feedback and, interestingly enough, I found a video that resembles more what you're talking about: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=an7IQLGspdA I can see what you mean, but this was never intended to be a conversation about when, if at all, to pull on the bars I was interested in the motion of my hips and how that creates power.

[mrcartledge]

From the perspective of getting maximum power down, for example when sprinting then pulling on the bars is absolutely the best technique. The whole point of doing this is that you can then exert the maximum downwards pressure on the pedals. By pulling on the bars you keep your upper body as level as possible (resisting the natural equal but opposite effect which sees your body rising as the pedals resist your downwards motion) and thus all your leg power goes into spinning the pedals, not pushing your body higher up.

This is quite simple physics. An easy way to demonstrate this is to stand on a set of bathroom scales and see how much you weigh. Then crouch on them again but this time hold the scales and pull yourself down onto them. You will be exerting far more pressure on the scales when pulling than when not.

While this isnt the most energy efficient method you are doing something wrong if you need to keep sprinting for long amounts of time.

[Jarl]

you are doing something wrong if you need to keep sprinting for long amounts of time.

For example, racing

[Crank]

From the perspective of getting maximum power down, for example when sprinting then pulling on the bars is absolutely the best technique. The whole point of doing this is that you can then exert the maximum downwards pressure on the pedals. By pulling on the bars you keep your upper body as level as possible (resisting the natural equal but opposite effect which sees your body rising as the pedals resist your downwards motion) and thus all your leg power goes into spinning the pedals, not pushing your body higher up.

This is quite simple physics. An easy way to demonstrate this is to stand on a set of bathroom scales and see how much you weigh. Then crouch on them again but this time hold the scales and pull yourself down onto them. You will be exerting far more pressure on the scales when pulling than when not.

While this isnt the most energy efficient method you are doing something wrong if you need to keep sprinting for long amounts of time.

interesting perspective - but not really evident in any sprint or 'out of the saddle' technique that I have ever seen - even on the track. I wonder if it is that obvious why nobody is doing it that way..??

[Doug]

Anyone who thinks you don't pull up on the bars when sprinting needs to try sprinting whilst holding the bars with their fingers just resting flat on top of the grips rather than gripping them.

[Gareth]

There are lots of right answers on this thread so far, but most of them are to different questions. It's not the most efficient way to climb by standing and pulling up on the bars but it does generate the most power for as long as you can keep it up. If you're XC racing, sprinting like this would only be useful for a quick overtaking move or to get up a very short, very steep pitch.

If you're trail riding and want to get up a steep pitch quickly, nothing will beat the power you can put down by pulling up on the bars: see this feature on the main site. You're both increasing the downwards force and adding downforce to the rear wheel, so it's useful on a steep climb where there is not much traction.

If you're looking for efficiency, sit and spin without moving your body whenever possible and if you do stand, avoid pulling on the bars as much as possible. Like Doug says, you do need to pull on the bar some to balance the forces involved.

Lee McCormack/Lopes are always right so long as you look carefuly at what they are optimising.

By the way, if you don't already own Mastering Mountain Bike Skills I absolutely insist you get a copy for Christmas!