Lat year one week of extreme Alpine decents showed up the limitations of my XT brakes. Masssive brake fade & constant re-bleeding, they were shagged after 6 days. I have since replaced them with a set of Saints and shimano floating rotors. I'm off back to Les Arcs in July & I have a couple of questions:

Last year I mainly used the Superstar Kevlar Pads which seemed ok. I assume that I should stay away from the sintered as they'll get too hot? I have a feeling at one point I had a set of sintered in and they may have cooked my brakes.

Braided hoses? Is it worth blowing cash and replacing my stock shimano hydraulic hoses with stainless steel braided hoses? Will the help stop brake fade from over heating?

Any info welcomed, thanks.

Bigger rotors if your not gone that route already. Brake fade not a nice thing still rember getting stuck behind someone on the Ruthin merida a few years ago and dragging the brakes with 160 rotors. Ended up going past them at a rate of knots when the levers pulled to the bars I run a 203 rotor on my full suss now great for rolling stoppies

I was quite happy with 203 rotors on standard hosed exlir brakes in alps last year just a few glazed pads

Yep was running 203s. Noticed this week that my old 203 rotors (Superstar saws) run in Alps last year have had a serious amount of their braking area removed. Hopefully the Saint 203 floating rotors will prove to be harder wearing.

You will have no problems at all with Saint 810's in the Alps. They are designed to be run with sintered pads.

I didnt even get a hint of pump in them on the Rangers Path with both sintered pads and standard hoses.

The honest answer on braided is: No. Likely not.
The braided metal just covers the plastic pipe. Plastic is an insulator. So, I'd assume the heat doesn't make it to the metal braiding. And besides, the braiding is then covered in plastic.
However, they look cool! Which is why I have them on my SX. I don't mind admitting that.

My advice is:-
Big rotors.
Run organic/semi for Alps. Sintered run hotter - perfect for UK.
DOT5.1 fluid - it boils at a higher temp. than DOT4. Make sure you do a perfect bleed just before you go. And, once you run DOT5.1 you need to replace the fluid every 6mths regardless of whether you ride the bike much.
When doing a hairy descent learn to double-tap on the brakes in advance of a corner - the first is to check for fade (and pumps the brake up), the 2nd is to slow you.
Always carry a spare set of pads in the backpack.

Now the tricky bit....
Riding style - [with regard to the brakes] can you 'up your game'? Brake less, but, brake harder when needed. Read the route ahead and find areas when you can let off the brakes to let them cool. Are you really letting off the brakes, or are you covering them just enough to let them drag (no matter how small)?
And if all else fails - pull over to the side and let the Camelback cool them down. It'll hiss, steam and maybe even smell! But, it'll fix it instantly (for now).

NB: You could always run tyres that have a little more 'drag' on them.

Don't let any Dot 3,4 or 5.1 fluid near your Saints. Shimano brakes use mineral oil. Use the pad contact adjuster to put a slightly bigger gap between the pads and rotor to help avoid draging them. Move the levers out a touch to keep the bite point in the same place.

Yep, same here, no fade with the Saints on Snowdon's Ranger Path last month. Good to know about the sintered pads & Saints.



Looking cool is enough reason to splash the cash

Pads? I usually carry 2 sets as I'm a belts & braces man

I think my 2.5 minions DHF are draggy enough (even more so when the super tacky goes up front). But you're dead right about riding style; I need to brake less. I tend to come into obstacles/corners hot and brake very hard last minute (thanks to the Saints) but I actually need to learn to scrub a little speed earlier and go through the bends/obstacles quicker.



Nope, mineral all the way. Though I do need to get some Dot 4.1 for the hopes. Good hint on increasing the gap between the pads & rotor. Thanks

I ran Hope Mono M4 with organic pads in the Alps. The only time I cooked the brakes was the first day when I hung on the brakes. So my advice is organic pads and don't hang on the brakes, make purposeful speed adjustments as required.

Ah! Thanks for picking up on that and clarifying it. I run Juicy's on all of mine, and tend to forget that different brakes have different rules.

I've heard people recommending that the levers be run so that when closed they come close to the bar - apparently, this cuts down on pump/fatigue in the arms. It does, of course, increase the risk of you pulling the lever right into the bar and getting nothing!

We did Austria last year (was awsome) for the first time.

Ran M4's with 203mm rotors, dot 5.1, braided hoses on 6" travel bike.
Changed the standard hope pads for sintered pads for longer wear rate, lasted the whole week with plenty left on at the end.
I am 16st and tend to drag the back brake when feeling out my comfort zone.

Findings -
On big and open hills it feels as if you accelerate speed like you've got warp drive, really nice when you get used to it and the terrain you're traversing.

Sintered pads worked better, bite wise as they warmed up but were quite wooden when cold.

Found I dragged the back brake like crazy when -
Learning a new trail
Riding the stupid stuff
Grassy ski slopes - you can't lock the back wheel on steep grass as you still accelerate to stupid speeds, 200m skids anyone.

First day, first run down, rear rotor turned black from the heat, same trail later on in week I knew where I could quoting a Leogang local "release ze brakes and let ze bike go" and where I needed to haul on the brakes at set points, over heating issues were not so bad.

It was on a DH race track where I really struggled with 6" on the front, rough and stoney top section, stupid baby head sized rock garden with switchbacks, balisticly fast straight down loose surface fire road with water bars to massive wooden table middle section, leading to high woodwork and 20 foot rooty vertical drops inbetween.

Experienced
Massive arm pump.
Massive leg pump
Left thumb joint area came up the size of orange, think I may have dislocatd it (still vey clicky now)
Completely fried the rear brake, dropping into bottom section with woodwork where the lever just pulled to the bars (parp)
Third run down could barely hold the bars let alone brake, weirdly ran smoother when forced not to brake and float over the bike to take the sting out, but snapped five spokes on the rear wheel in the process.

Things that helped

Setting lever to bite 5mm in from of grip, to help reduce stretched finger and thumb grip providing better grip, reduced arm pump, tired fingers, helped to reduce sub conc brake dragging when feeling twitchy.
Feels nasty when starting out but great mid run.
Don't worry about the lever pulling to the bars because when it goes it goes, doesn't matter how far the levers are away from the bar.
As mentioned double tap the brake to make sure it's there still.
And having a dropper seat post was a godsend.
You do need to adapt your riding style, but takes a couple of days to de-program old habits.

Just in case I get to go again now running 180 forks and Hope V2 brakes with 203mm rotors (awsome) still love the M4's great for uk stuff but found their limit in that situation.
Noticed quite a few guy's were running Saints or V2.

Erghhh......I'm worried

Just "upgraded" to M4's on a 6" bike (Vanilla R 36's) to take to the French Alps, Lake Garda and Italian Alps this year

you'll be ok, especially doing mixed stuff, and if your light, but get a dropper post if you don't already have one.

A lot of my problems were due to age, fitness, weight, technique and mental approach rather than equipment.
Although I think I was the only that didn't bin it at some stage, caution wins the day.

Pete was running a HT bike - lasted 2 runs before disintergrating
Greg was running 140mm bike - suffered a lot of blow outs but still got down every thing quicker than me except a techy slow rooty switchback trail.
Max was running a 160mm AM & 200mm FR/DH bikes - the 160mm was lent to Pete untill he hired a bike, this bike has since experiened a few failure issues.

As an aside just got around to replacing the caliper seals on the M4's as the pistons had started to stick after the trip and generally felt a bit tired.
After the strip down I would say the rear pistons probably also need changing, you can see the heat damage/oxidation compared to fronts.
The brake fluid also looked like runny apple sauce.

These M4 have now replaced a new set of Shimano SLX's on a HT which started over heating/binding when dropping down the side of the Malverns a couple of week back.

Pffft, my M4s are three years old and still have the original fluid in them, three Alps trips and numerous UK DH days and they are still perfect.

Just brake properly and you won't have any issues. But do get the levers set up correctly as that is what tires your hands, and in my opinion is actually what people are experiencing rather than brake fade.

I rest my case, as Sammy's not a biffer and can ride a bike

On recent Snowdon Ranger path descent I had terrible arm pump. Only at the bottom I realised I'd bumped one of the levers at some point and they were at worryingly different angles. Setting your levers up is soooo important, especially for those mad descents where you find yourself thinking, as you unwrap a finger from the bars, "shall I hang onto the bars or brake?"

The setting of the lever reach and bite point is just as important as angle, especially on long days in the Alps. Having the bite point too far out can really really tire your hands, as I found out in Morzine about halfway down 'Run of the Mill', just before the steep section. Had to ditch the bike because there was no energy left in my hands to brake properly.

Do you guys running sintered not get any fluid fade when pushing the brake or on big DH runs?

Been going to the Alps for the last 10 years and this is what we've learnt.

Sintered pads will out last any thing else spesh when it get wet, Organic pads will just dissapear in the mud. My mate has been using the the same pads for 2 years including 2 weeks in the alps!!!

203's are a must, Any thing smaller just gets too hot and boils the fluid and melts seals spesh in Shimano mineral brakes.

Wind your brake leavers back, almost half way in to what you would normaly use for uk XC. Reduces arm pump alot, Also lift them, up a bit. Coz your not over the bars as much your natual hand position is much more horizontal.

try not to drag the brakes, First day you will, but try and brake short and hard, will make it more fun and eaier to hold.

HAVE FUN.

Also 2 pints Mutzig helps relive the pain at the end of the day

Yes, but learning to brake better i.e. not dragging them in the key to avoiding this. As long as you're giving the discs a few seconds here and there to cool down then you shouldn't have this problem.

Im not getting a full fade just a little more travel in the lever after hard braking into corners etc. Going back to normal after a few seconds.

After successive corners that need a shed of speed its pretty noticeable. But still not a full fade out.

The brake is an Avid code 5.


Cheers.

If pumping the level sort the problem, even briefly, I think the standard problem is air in the system.

Pumping makes no difference and it doesn't seem like an air thing.. but yeah it could be.

The bite gets closer to the bars after a hard scrub, then it goes back to the normal/set reach after picking up a bit of speed..

I can only think its an over heating thing. Its a new "characteristic" after switching to sintered pads; only got the brakes a few weeks ago and they came with organic. Didn't have the problem before the switch hence I'm assuming its some thing to do with the metallic pad transferring heat to the caliper/fluid.

Going to try another bleed and see what changes. Also wondering if the DOT 5.1 I got with the bleed kit was duff.

What size of disks do you use mate? I run moto V2 with 203mm floating disks + sinntered pads(inners in the wet eats organic) and dont suffer fade.

Always use new brake fluid to bleed brakes mate because if the seals broken on the bottle and air's gotten in the fluid can degrade

185's

Well my net trawling goes on, looking for useful info on an Alpine brake setup. From all the conflicting info, cod-experts & abusive rants (STW) it seems that if its dry in the Alps I will be running organics and if it p*sses down its out with the sintered. I'll give the brakes a full bleed, so fresh mineral oil in there before I go. I will attempt to brake less (no brake dragging) and have faith in my Shimano Saints & their large floating rotors.

I experienced rear brake fade (total) on recent Pass Portes on the long rooty section into Morzine (30+ mins downhill riding ?) - opinion of fellow riders was it was over-heating (sintered pads - hayes brakes) due to being on the brake a lot (too much). After riding on the front brake only for a while and/or stopping the brake returns to normal.

That section is the only section that's overheated my M4s with sintered pads. But I was being a numpty and dragging them down 90% of it!

UPDATE

Here's my user feedback on Saints in the Alps. In the end I didn't put sintered in, organics at back & kevlar at front. Changed the pads 2/3 through week (only for prudence). I played around with the freestroke to increase modulation as otherwise they're on or off. Someone cooked their XT breaks and someone had issues with their M4s. I had no issues.

So Shimano Saints brakes in the Alps with 203 floating rotors are the perfect choice. They stopped me on everything, wet or dry, and I gave them a real hammering. No fade no need to bleed and having the ability to stop on a pin allows you to really crank up the speed on those descents.

Welcome to the Saint Appreciation Society TH. On all the forums I read the recommendation seems to be a set of Saints from anyone who has used them and some other brake by those that haven't.

OK OK... I'm weak.

I need some (off to the t'internet searching for children required for experimentation)

R d